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Victoria Garcia posted a new Marketing A Business thread on 1/2/2010

Social Media Doesn't "Work"

Will someone please SHOW ME how social media has produced a client, an account or a project for their business. All the talk is about how it "works" and no substantiation. And, I don't mean isolated situations where nerds are hiring other nerds to expound on the wonderousness of social media. As a marketing consultant, I work in the predictable and measurable. My small business clients can't afford to spend hours and hours tweeting and making "friends" in far flung places. We have to invest in the sure thing, track the results, and refine our efforts. Social media hasn't produced much in the way of results, as far as I can see. It IS NOT like networking, where you meet people face to face...as in human contact. Studies show that only 7% of communication is made of what you say. The rest is tone, body language, facial expression, etc. With real world networking you can establish actual relationships that lead to a referral or a client. I feel a like the little kid who shouted out "the emperor has no clothes!" Social media is going to prove to be the 21st Century's equivilent of Salem Witch Trials, McCarthyism, the Red Scare, Terrorism, and Satanic ritual abuse. Prove me wrong, I'd love to hear it.
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105

William Henderson Responded on 1/4/2010


I agree with your sentiment but you are fighting an uphill battle. Read article (NYT) http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/03/weekinreview/03carr.html?scp=2&sq=twitter&st=cse
There is the large and growing like minded gen. Y’ers indoctrinated into technology saturated interaction in virtual communities with temporary and anonymous relationships driven by shallow dialogue snippets and viral propagation. Social Media is salve for the insecure. It provides a platform for self absorbed jabber about anything anytime with or without thought or experience in or out of sincerity with purpose of finding a welcoming audience "in the virtual community". The proponents of Social Media "…know the price of everything but the value of nothing". Business owners are mesmerized by the "loose and free" access to an environment that allows them to "market themselves" by saying or claiming anything uninhibited by risk or cost.
For many the goal of participating in Social Media is the casual accumulation of as many ‘friends’ and ‘followers’ as is possible because they are convinced, just like the SPAMMERS that preceded them, that with a proliferation of contacts comes the opportunity to monetize. Nothing (or little) ventured, and so much to gain. This contrasts to building solid and lasting relationships through calculated risk, hard work, perseverance, reputation, sincerity, and delivering value. The rapidity of turnover and frenzied capitalization of Social Media says a lot. Somebody is making money.
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I would say that, social media is popular, but tossing commerce into the middle of it can be compared to the "candle" parties my wife gets invited to (she never goes). There's just something awkward about introducing a profit motive within any social atmosphere. I believe there are more elegant and appropriate ways for facebook and myspace to monetize, there is value there that deserves compensation. http://www.bounceweb.com/ - Bounceweb Hosting 23 on 9/23/2010

 
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287

Joe Villeneuve Responded on 1/4/2010


Victoria, I hate to tell you this but social media does work, and in a big way. First let me say if you just go at it without a plan, it is a big waste of time. You have to have a plan, you have to educate yourself on what you can and can't do, and you need a system that can automate the repetitive steps so you can devote you valuable time to closing deals with legitimate leads. It will work for almost any type of business too. I do it for all of mine...from Real Estate investing, Architecture, biz startups, and my webmall. I have seen results in a big way once I learnt how to do it right...and it wasn't hard, but it takes time to get trained and go through the steps to set up the campaigns. Once I did this, my client response doubled in about 2 months.
Most important is the concept of attraction marketing...making them come to you because you are the "expert". Perceived knowledge brings respect, and that respect brings clients. I can tell you stories of how, when I used to do seminars as a featured speaker on energy efficiency, I had people running to me to ask for my card to do their house design for them. The SM allows us to present ourselves the same way, only with a much larger coverage, and at a much lower cost...in both time and money.
Social media does work, but you have to know the the right way to do it so it is effective. Isn't it funny how it always comes down to education.
Joe Villeneuve
http://socialmarketingeducation.blogspot.com/
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105

William Henderson Responded on 1/5/2010


JV thanks for your honesty and candor in putting the word expert in quotation and following with that with 'perceived knowledge'. There within your defense of SM I detect a wink and a nod. There is tons of advice and commentary online on how to use SM to "reinvent" yourself. If the brilliance of SM does not occur to someone it is simply because they have not been educated as to its exploitation. By unlocking the secrets you too can gain respect and fortune and achieve stunning results. Please keep in mind the FTC instituted tougher rules (Dec. 2009) that eliminates the safe harbor "results may vary" disclaimer specifically targeting social media marketing. The FTC's watching for misleading or unsubstantiated claim and says they will apply broad liability for those responsible. Wonder what impact that will have on the "wild west" that is the current SM scene?
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105

William Henderson Responded on 1/5/2010


...and now for some interesting developments http://www.dailyfinance.com/story/web-2-0-suicide-machine-application-is-not-painless-for-facebook/19302311/?mod=mktw
Seems once you are swallowed by Social Media you might never get out.
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287

Joe Villeneuve Responded on 1/5/2010


William, contrary to the assumptions made about the words "perceived" and "expert", SM does work. The point I was trying to make is that the basis for making it work is the ability of the business using SM to project themselves as an expert (that means having and willing to spread their knowledge on the subject). It always comes down to knowledge of what you are doing. The only problem I have with the SM scene is how many people try to sell you programs, without any training. Training is the most important item to make it work. With training, you can easily make SM work for you...even in this "wild west" SM scene.

The fact is, SM is actually the perfect method of marketing any business right now, but it is so new you find the landscape changing all the time. Again, this is where the educational part comes in. If you understand the rules and the marketing systems available, you can easily adapt. SM is very cheap, and highly effective. The confusion and problems with it being ineffective comes from the "word of mouth" education. Someone says, "use FaceBook to market" and you run to FB, get your account set up, and just post things without any plan or reason, and it doesn't work. Of course it doesn't, how can it?

Learn what works and what doesn't, and make sure you have a plan/system in place that is a cohesive system of interaction between all the different SM sites and it will work.

It does work...and very, very well too.

Joe Villeneuve
www.automateyourmlmnow.com
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105

William Henderson Responded on 1/5/2010


Joe V - I take note of the strong points you make. Also, more to the point of Victoria's challenge ...predictions for 2010 Re. Social Media Marketing http://www.emarketer.com/Article.aspx?R=1007446 Marketers will demand better ways to measure impact on brand and sales. eMarketer has a number of statistical articles surveying Social Media users and trending. This is also an interesting article http://www.chicagobusiness.com/cgi-bin/mag/article.pl?id=32875 Cheers.
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Rich Ward Responded on 1/5/2010


Social media has also produced zero for me. It's a huge waste of time in my view. If you want predictable measurable results you have to get in the real world and get out there with a bit of sweat equity and get it done! In my view social media is for the instant gratification folks....give me it now....because I don't really want to do much of anything....end result is zero for your efforts.

I run a discount prescription card business along with offering limited insurance products and my experience with social media has been anything but productive. So called "experts" want to charge all this money to show how it's done and all they do is take ones money, leaving the newbie with zero for results.

What has been very productive for me is simply talking to people face to face, partnering with other businesses and establishing trusting relationships. It's worked that way from the beginning of time. I have to laugh every time I see someone on a social media site trying to promote their businesses. It's a mere platform to get yet bombarded with yet thousands upon thousands of ads...

Good luck to anyone with the social media thing....certainly not for me. I'm with Victoria....prove to me with solid numbers that it works. No one has been able to do it yet!

Rich Ward
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287

Joe Villeneuve Responded on 1/6/2010


Rich, SM works if it is done correctly. Actually, you made my point with your 3rd paragraph:
" partnering with other businesses and establishing trusting relationships. It's worked that way from the beginning of time." This is the correct way/goal behind SM for business. If you are doing it right you are establishing these relationships you mentioned using SM. You are also correct when you say it involves work. Anyone that says it doesn't is dreaming. Hard work, and education on what to do works just as effectively using SM to build these relationships as the old tried and true methods. SM is simply another way to introduce yourself and your businesses. At the same time you can't just put up a post on some non-business (Twitter) SM site and end your post with "how do you like me so far" and expect results.

Bottom line is if you want success, follow the advice of other successful people...not the unsuccessful. The successful people proved it worked. All the unsuccessful people proved is they didn't do it right...yet.

Joe Villeneuve
http://socialmarketingeducation.blogspot.com/
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Amy Ford Responded on 1/6/2010


Victoria, William and Rich,

I am going to have to back up JV on this one. Being a Gen Y'er myself, I am constantly engaged in social media and would say this is where the majority of my exposure to news and new business comes from. Below is a link to an outstanding article that gives concrete and measureable evidence that SM is working and effective, but here is an interesting statistic:


"Of respondents already using social media, 81% say its No. 1 benefit is generating exposure; following that were, respectively, increasing traffic and building new business relationships."


Overall, the main issue is how can companies effectively integrate information obtained through social media into current marketing campaigns to improve efficiency, effectiveness, strategy formulation, offer formulation and customer feedback loops? Read the article and it may help shed some light on the subject.

http://www.btobonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20091012/FREE/910099998

Best,
Amy
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105

William Henderson Responded on 1/6/2010


I noted the report says 72% of respondents "had just started" using Social Media Marketing. The report confirms that SMM is "growing" with more business owners interested in it but I feel there is little there insofar as objective results. eMarketer survey noted a very small pecentage of Social Media users (3-5%) use SM sites for business networking and news (b2b or b2c). This possibly indicates a lot of growth potential, or lack of interest.
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It might also indicate that business owners are already working 18 hours a day and are overwhelmed by the idea of adding more to their day, especially when it 's hard to nail down the results. Business owners need more than "oh look--10 people "liked" my post" to persuade them that SM can help their businesses. We SM pros need to figure out how to make the results clear and accessible. - Hilary Cable 11 on 3/16/2011

 
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287

Joe Villeneuve Responded on 1/6/2010


Amy, You hit it right on the nose. Like anything, if you have 100 people asked for an opinion on a program, and 99 of them give all kinds of reasons why it doesn't/won't work (my favorite is from some world renowned expert named "everyone" (as in "everyone knows") and 1 person says it worked very well for them, who are you going to listen to? I'd rather listen to the 1 successful person, than the unsuccessful majority.

Joe Villeneuve
www.automateyourmlmnow.com
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Joe, please call me. richard@government-mailing-lists.com | t: 4165 630-3679. Thanks - Richard Furlong 1 on 10/16/2010

 
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105

William Henderson Responded on 1/6/2010


The report Amy suggested for reading polled 2500 "Marketing Professionals" about Social Media Marketing and a little more than 1/3 of those polled responded. Of the responders, 1/2 was sole proprietors (consultants, etc.). Victoria started the ball rolling here by looking for some objective tangible real world results. What happened to Victoria by the way? Anybody hear from her further? Anyway this has been an interesting thread.
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Bloggers School Responded on 1/6/2010


Wow Victoria Dell made 69 million from Twitter Alone in 2009. I have many clients who are selling more tire, training or what ever they sell. No one ever said it was the way to over night riches. The truth is that those who use it will win. The ones who don't will just have to pay more money to advertise the same products.

We get plenty of new clients online using social media to listen to what people needs are.

I will prove you wrong contact me in five years without touching any social media,blogging or new trend platforms to drive your business. I promise you you will fall of the face of the earth.
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Joe Villeneuve Responded on 1/6/2010


Social marketing is a beautiful thing.

Joe Villeneuve
www.automateyourmlmnow.com
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105

William Henderson Responded on 1/6/2010


Fact check. Dell had Twitter related sales of $6.5 million over the past TWO years according to Bloomberg. Dell says it has 100 employees working 35 channels. I'm guessing they have yet to make a dime on this Twitter action. Dell is a $61 BILLION dollar company.
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Bloggers School Responded on 1/6/2010


Sorry William I forgot the . but you get the point money is to be made and it is early. I bet all the sales offline that may not be track that could have started on twitter, Facebook etc

What is your point about 61 billion? Dell is smart enough to be there. i sure they know something you refuse to acknowledge for your own reasons.

It seams your facts are way off on Social Media and what's to come.
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105

William Henderson Responded on 1/6/2010


We are engaged in debate here not personal attack. My point about Dell is this, here is a $61 billion dollar company with significant resources and after two years and hundreds of man hours invested in the Social Media gold mine of Twitter, they have $6.5 Mil. in sales to show for it. Breathless proponents of Social Media Marketing cannot help but imply (exaggerate) claims of stunning results without providing any objective data because like faith healers most are selling the mystical touch, the exclusive "secret" knowledge they possess, that will transform the bungling wannabe into a Social Media Marketing tycoon. Social Media Marketing is an experiment not science or art ..yet.
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Victoria Garcia Responded on 1/7/2010


Thanks for all the intelligent replies. I don't mind fighting an uphill battle, William. That's how you stand out, by not following the herd. I just want to point out that not one of my successful clients, most of whom are small or medium size businesses, is using social media seriously. It's just not realistic to expect to spend several hours a week Tweeting, or on FaceBook or LinkedIn AND run a business. So, the Dell example doesn't wash. They can also spend $5M on branding and not sell a CD, and they're fine with it.

I've spend over 2 years listening to as many experts on the subject as I can (all of whom I know personally). All the advice is vague. In fact, if you ask 20 social media experts about it, you will get 40 opinions ranging from "put in more personal information, to "be subtle and drop in what you do every so often," to "people have to get to know you, then they want to do business with you."

I can pinpoint exactly who comes to my client's websites, where they originated, even their email address. I can ID the decision makers in a company, get their email and send them an email newsletter, then track who opened it, so we can follow up with them. In short, marketing has gotten trackable and laser focused. Can social media do that?

Social media is like skywriting on a windy day.
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Victoria Garcia Responded on 1/7/2010


I forgot to mention that I'm a public speaker. I'm thinking about creating a presentation called "Social Media Doesn't Work," just to see how many auditoriums I can fill. I think a lot of people are starving for a dose of reality or a counter point of view to all the insanity.
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287

Joe Villeneuve Responded on 1/7/2010


Victoria,

In answer to your question. "I can pinpoint exactly who comes to my client's websites, where they originated, even their email address. I can ID the decision makers in a company, get their email and send them an email newsletter, then track who opened it, so we can follow up with them. In short, marketing has gotten trackable and laser focused. Can social media do that? " the answer is yes.

Joe Villeneuve
http://socialmarketingeducation.blogspot.com/
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Victoria - email marketing is another avenue of social media. It was/is the first wave. You are already using and getting results from a tool you are bashing. As Joe points out SM in the newer formats such as Facebook, etc. can do the same thing you are doing with email - advantage - larger audience, quicker response, and more narrow target. - Antoinette Raynes 1 on 10/6/2010

 
 

by the way Joe - I am not finding a subscription link on your website. Is there some way to follow your updates? - Antoinette Raynes 1 on 10/6/2010

 
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Bloggers School Responded on 1/7/2010


Victoria you need to look into this further. I think you could fill the room with people who think just like you out of fear of change.

The Media is the message Youtube watch it if you haven't yet.

My social Media Can do that and more people hit the share button or RSS and the message spreads like a rash.
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287

Joe Villeneuve Responded on 1/8/2010


Education. That is why most people fail at anything new. Lack of education will almost always lead to a negative opinion about that new thing. Negative opinion is easy to spread since it takes less effort to follow the pack than learn how to do it right. I can fill a room with skeptical people, and only have one person that is successful at SM...guess who I would listen too? Why would I listen to unsuccessful people? Why would anyone? I would think that if someone, like the Bloggers School" or myself, was successful at this, and was willing to provide a means to learn how to do it right, people would listen. I'm sure both of us can say that we have experienced that.

There have been questions asked about finding someone that can say that SM has worked for them...well, there are at least two that have provided that answer here. Now the real question is, are you actually asking the question, looking for an answer, or are you just making a negative statement in the form of a question?

SM does work. It has for me, and I'm sure it has for the Bloggers School. My recommendation would be to pursue both of our sites to gain that education so you can become one of those people that learns how to do it right.

For more info you can view this video where you can sign up for a free webinar. They will show you the program as well as answer any questions you may have. It's free, so what do you have to lose?

http://www.sevenfiguremastermindteam.com/previewTemplate/JoeVilleneuve/27/3
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105

William Henderson Responded on 1/8/2010


Victoria, I feel a wholly contrarian presentation to debunk the Social Media Marketing phenom might not draw a crowd. Too many lemmings have already gone off the edge of the cliff drawn by hyperbole, mystical allure, and the coercive persuasion tactics of the Social Media Marketing consultant profiteers. Instead it would be interesting to explore the promise of potential associated with Social Media Marketing. It is widely acknowledged by professionals monitoring the SMM ‘industry’ that results are largely anecdotal. Then I think you have the opportunity to present an effective case for traditional marketing methods and objective supporting data. In the end the audience should be left to decide for themselves which route (or both) would be appropriate for them. You could direct those interested in pursuing Social Media Marketing to the web site links prescribed by some of the forum participants you encountered herein. These posters appear to have holistic universal solutions via web links they so selflessly share and thus far no forum topic has escaped their Social Media prescription for a cure.
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101

Chris Silvey Responded on 1/8/2010


Dells lack of sales cannot be blamed on SM. The company itself in the IT industry suffers from a very bad reputation which I will point some of them out.

1.They lack proper cooling - underpowered CPU fans, inadequate heat sinks, and poor tower ventalation.

2. poor quality power supplies
3. Motherboards - Often using outdated chipsets, the motherboards are not of the standard atx or microatx design. You cannot mount a standard atx motherboard in a Dell tower.
4. Dells have to be shipped to Dell, or replacement parts purchased from Dell do to the design factors which more or less cuts out most 3rd party vendors and repair specialist.
5. When a Dell goes down so does your business.
6. Dell support is horrible
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287

Joe Villeneuve Responded on 1/8/2010


There's nothing "holistic" about it. Like anything, if you get bad info or you don't do it right, it doesn't work. I have found that most people want to take the fast track, with as little effort as possible. When you find someone, like the ones that love SM but tell you it can do what you want overnight, I don't follow them either. The ones that tell you it takes time and effort, and provide the education and the tools to make it happen, are the ones that are worth following. Too many people will take the shortcut on these programs too I'm afraid, and then when it doesn't work out, they offer a blanket opinion that since this one didn't work (or many tries at many different ones didn't work), then the system doesn't work...and that, through history, has been proven wrong. The use of SM for business is new. Like any new venture/system, it has its learning curve.

I'll leave you with this one thought. How many of the products or systems we depend on today started out covered with opinions that they were that they were bad and heavily criticized? Your using at least two of them right now.

Joe Villeneuve
www.automateyourmlmnow.com
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105

William Henderson Responded on 1/8/2010


Dell is the 3rd largest seller of computers in the world behind HP (No.1) abd Acer (No. 2) - but noted your point about the shoddy QC/support.
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Victoria Garcia Responded on 1/8/2010


OK, Joe, be specific. How can you tell me exactly how social media can do that? I'd love to know.

Bloggers School...anyone who hasn't got the guts to use his/her real name is in no position to be doing pop psychology "fear of change" analysis on strangers. If you had the first idea of the amount of change that my industry has accommodated, you would feel as ridiculous as you sound making that statement. Call it "fear of wasting time." if you must pass judgment, Dr. Pop Psy. Am I the only one who sees the irony here?

Re: William's comment, this reminds me of the hysteria produced by multilevel marketing evangelicals who promised that people were building zillion dollar empires on the back of water purifiers and soap. Just because everyone is having fun at the party, doesn't mean it's a business tool. You made the statement "It is widely acknowledged by professionals monitoring the SMM ‘industry’ that results are largely anecdotal." I wish you could back that up with an authoritative source.

Joe - so how much time do you have to put into it before it works? A year everyday? 5 years? This is exactly what I'm talking about. It's too vague and unproven. Occasional
anecdotal success doesn't wash in my business (marketing). I need dependable data. I do agree with you that there's going to be a shake out, and a lot of this is going to prove to be hooey. A fraction that is REPEATABLE AND DUPLICATABLE is going to prove to be worthy of investing time and money in.
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Victoria Garcia Responded on 1/8/2010


OK, Joe, be specific. How can you tell me exactly how social media can do that? I'd love to know.

Bloggers School...anyone who hasn't got the guts to use his/her real name is in no position to be doing pop psychology "fear of change" analysis on strangers. If you had the first idea of the amount of change that my industry has accommodated, you would feel as ridiculous as you sound making that statement. Call it "fear of wasting time." if you must pass judgment, Dr. Pop Psy. Am I the only one who sees the irony here?

Re: William's comment, this reminds me of the hysteria produced by multilevel marketing evangelicals who promised that people were building zillion dollar empires on the back of water purifiers and soap. Just because everyone is having fun at the party, doesn't mean it's a business tool. You made the statement "It is widely acknowledged by professionals monitoring the SMM ‘industry’ that results are largely anecdotal." I wish you could back that up with an authoritative source.

Joe - so how much time do you have to put into it before it works? A year everyday? 5 years? This is exactly what I'm talking about. It's too vague and unproven. Occasional
anecdotal success doesn't wash in my business (marketing). I need dependable data. I do agree with you that there's going to be a shake out, and a lot of this is going to prove to be hooey. A fraction that is REPEATABLE AND DUPLICATABLE is going to prove to be worthy of investing time and money in.
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Victoria Garcia Responded on 1/8/2010


p.s. Chris...thanks for your comment, but we're not discussing Dell.
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287

Joe Villeneuve Responded on 1/8/2010


Victoria, Everyone's situation is different (you knew I was going to say that). I think that is one of the reasons we find people criticizing the system. They try to match the timetable of someone else, without success, and immediately there is the proof it doesn't work. With your experience in marketing I'm sure you agree.
I have 1500 words to answer what would take at least 10 times that to explain...but that is my point. Everyone wants a quick answer...and I find quick answers are usually incomplete and sales pitches.
Having said that, I'll give you a quick story about me. My formal education is in Architecture...30 years owning my own firm. Successful, but I became more successful when I started to use forms of SM/Attraction marketing. There is nothing like being a featured speaker, chosen for your knowledge, and have people come to you to design their house for them. Attraction marketing at its best. SM, in the forms we have today, can bring on the same returns based on making that same contact and establishing you as "expert in your field" to "prospective client".
Web SM campaigns, focused on achieving that relationship, can be a very effective tool IN ADDITION to traditional marketing methods. Every business knows that once you start out the door, you get exponentially further away from a sale with every step..unless you leave them with a way and desire to make contact again with you.

Joe Villeneuve
www.automateyourmlmnow.com
www.conceptsindesigns.com
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101

Chris Silvey Responded on 1/8/2010


Well Victoria, you are quite right we are not discussing Dell, however it did strike a cord with me since I delve in that market.

I been following this thread and saving my comments because this has been discussed before and quite frankly I often enjoy Joe doing all the muscle work.

He is right, SM does work and it can actually work fast if you know what you are doing. It takes a learning curve, a basic knowledge. With SM there are a few routes you can go which have a positive effect, however if you go on facebook or twitter and start spamming your URL it will do more harm than good. However let me stress this. It reaches more people than most email campaigns. It is viewed and not dropped in a spam bucket.
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Chris ... thanks for the laugh "enjoy Joe doing all the muscle work" - Antoinette Raynes 1 on 10/6/2010

 
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101

Chris Silvey Responded on 1/8/2010


Well Victoria, you are quite right we are not discussing Dell, however it did strike a cord with me since I delve in that market.

I been following this thread and saving my comments because this has been discussed before and quite frankly I often enjoy Joe doing all the muscle work.

He is right, SM does work and it can actually work fast if you know what you are doing. It takes a learning curve, a basic knowledge. With SM there are a few routes you can go which have a positive effect, however if you go on facebook or twitter and start spamming your URL it will do more harm than good. However let me stress this. It reaches more people than most email campaigns. It is viewed and not dropped in a spam bucket.
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105

William Henderson Responded on 1/8/2010


Victoria, I don’t understand your challenge point: ‘…You made the statement "It is widely acknowledged by professionals monitoring the SMM ‘industry’ that results are largely anecdotal." I wish you could back that up with an authoritative source.’
Your forum topic was in search for quantitative evidence that Social Media Marketing works. I’m suggesting that besides the Dell results presented here everything else is qualitative (anecdotal) and eMarketer (see my previous post) has framed a trend in 2010 that marketers will demand to see more quantitative results. It seems to me I’m supporting your argument. Have you actually read my posts? Have a nice day.
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Victoria Garcia Responded on 1/8/2010


iIve read your posts end to end William, and i was interested to know where you got the info that SMM results are largely anecdotal. That would support my point that nothing is proven, i.e. quantitative and more than just talk. If that was a authoritative source, I'd like to read it. I'm serious, not sarcastic if that's what you thought.

As for Chris' comment, my frustration in in the way SMM is talked about in vague terms, such as "it can actually work if you know what you are doing." My issue is with the word "work." Work how? To what degree? Define "work.."

This may have been talked about before, Chris, but so far, I haven't heard one single success story. Who in this thread has gotten actual revenue numbers attached to social media?

For instance, one client of mine has gone from $3M/yr to $15M per year with mainstream media and a website, PPC, and an email newsletter.. Another has doubled his business with same. These are measurable results. Voodoo "works," if you believe in it, but that doesn't mean its a substitute for anything real.

So far, SMM has the same track record as praying. I'm sure my clients do a lot of praying, but they can't connect the dots to any sales.
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Joe Villeneuve Responded on 1/8/2010


Victoria,
2 months in system I received 5 new architectural leads. Now you have to understand that for my line of work that is big since my projects are long term. These leads were not passive leads but hot ones since they came to me. They had seen my blog, my website, my comments on forums and other social media, my eBook (being reworked as we speak), leading to email and phone connections. Out of the 5 leads, 2 are now clients, 1 is putting together their information for me, and the other 2 are thinking about it but aren't ready to move forward yet.

My cost over this two month period, no, how about the projected cost over a year for all of the items I mentioned will be around $600...my fee per job is more than that. This does not even take into account any future clients that I will get over that same year.

This is for only one of my ventures. The others are about the same results over the course of a year.

It takes more time to get the education to learn how to do it right than to actually do it. Too many people don't think education is important enough to spend time or money on it after they graduate from school. It's a shame.

Joe Villeneuve
www.automateyourmlmnow.ccom
www.conceptsindesigns.com
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William Henderson Responded on 1/8/2010


Here is a link http://www.marketingcharts.com/direct/social-media-marketing-still-lacks-strong-metrics-4039/ Cheers.
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William Henderson Responded on 1/8/2010


This report is dated but you may find it still interest http://www.destinationcrm.com/Articles/CRM-News/Daily-News/New-Social-Media-Not-Helping-Sales-53368.aspx
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Bloggers School Responded on 1/8/2010


Victoria here it is I drove a truck before becoming a Social Media business consultant. Now I pay me rent and bills using social media to find clients who are searching for what they need to get the job done. I will continue to pay my self from my efforts online and off. I sell flip camera and many more services and products through affiliate links.

Provide education when others need you they will remember your kindness. It works if you stop resisting. When you see the next trends coming learn about that if it fits wear it.

I hope you see that people are making money doing what they love. Soon employees that you may have will be moving up the ladder of life. This is to be embraced and not resisted.

Watch this video Are you living in the past or in the future.

http://www.bloggersschool.com/2009/02/13/are-you-living-in-the-past-in-the-present-or-in-the-future/
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Bloggers School Responded on 1/8/2010


Marshal McLuhan the Media is the message.

Its about the information not the social media because the Social Media is the tool to delivery that message. This Changes the world entirely.
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Bloggers School Responded on 1/8/2010


Also because of social media I was able to hit the Facebook and twitter share button in this forum to gain traffic off your great Idea and title Good Work I like the way it garbs people in.

I once did a post about George Bush being the greatest president ever. I hated George but the response was huge from people asking how I could say that.
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William Henderson Responded on 1/8/2010


The bottom line is that only 16% of firms using Social Media Marketing actually measure ROI (August 2009 eMarker - study by Mzinga/Babson Executive Education). Instead the derivative intangibles and qualitative advantages of Social Media Marketing are expounded upon by consultants and self proclaimed SMM gurus. These are murky "metrics", difficult to understand and not at all quantitative. There are surely real tools to measure real ROI but obviously few are using them or inclined to use them... and proponents/advocates of SMM are fine with that.
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Victoria Garcia Responded on 1/9/2010


Ah-ha! At last an answer to my question - Joe writes "They had seen my blog, my website, my comments on forums and other social media, my eBook (being reworked as we speak), leading to email and phone connections." Let's dissect this. Your blog, your website and your ebook are NOT SMM marketing. They are INTERNET or WEBSITE marketing, which I conceed works and can work well. If someone is searching using keywords, and those words are in your website and blog, then they are going to find you, read about you...and possibly hire you.

And, internet/website marketing is measurable. You can access metrics which will give you ROI answers. (Caveat: Lots of business owners think they can through some self-built blog or website up, not do SEO and then step back and wait for the deluge...which isn't going to happen).

Those things are not the same as banging away on Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc. with the exeception that they MIGHT raise your standing with search engines and help to be found. So, are we clear on the differences between SMM and internet/website marketing?

Re Bloggers School...you and folks like you are the only ones making money from SME. There will always be snake oil salesmen as long as there is snake oil.

William, I'm going to check out that those links. Thanks.
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Victoria Garcia Responded on 1/9/2010


Sorry, I meant throw, not through...
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Victoria Garcia Responded on 1/9/2010


You guys have helped me to see that there is a lot of confusion about terms, which is a wonderful insight. It accounts for why there is so much obfuscation.
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Victoria Garcia Responded on 1/9/2010


William...excellent articles, especially the second one. It confirms absolutely what I think has been going on...lots of smoke, no fire. Will you marry me, smart guy? Oh, forgot I already have a husband. :)>
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Joe Villeneuve Responded on 1/9/2010


No confusion at all. If you look back at my comments you'll see I stated earlier that there is a combination of items used to market of which SMM is only a part, but that part can prove to be either the starting point or the connection to all the other online media I mentioned.

The idea that having your links out there, through SMM or other online media, to help elevate you on search engines is also an important part.

It will be hard to quantify the direct link between SMM and income since you really don't make any direct income from SMM postings, but you do make contacts, and add to credibility from these postings, and all of that does contribute to income.

Put up a billboard on the freeway, along with other traditional marketing techniques like an article about you or a t.v./radio spot and tell me the exact income derived from each of them.

I know, you can use different tel. #'s for people to call to filter them, but you can use the same concept online and through SMM's. Most people trying to use them (and say they don't work) just throw it against the wall without any of the controls that are used with traditional marketing plans. The problem isn't that it doesn't work. The problem is that most people trying to use it unsuccessfully won't take the time to find out from successful users how to do it right.

Joe Villeneuve
www.thepowerofrealestatenow.com
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Chris Silvey Responded on 1/9/2010


Facebook groups work pretty good to generate some traffic. The first group I joined I dropped in my url and received about 130 hits. My use of it is more or less like posting classified ads. You can post locally (with friends), scale it out with your own group(build your group members), or span out more using several groups. So in a way you can geographically post To me it is the same theory.

With the contacts I build from these leads I move them to email, IM, or skype depending if it's a customer or a network partner. I do not like using twitter .facebook, myspace as a com base. It just drives me nuts seeing junk posted.

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William Henderson Responded on 1/9/2010


Where do you all think we are on the hype cycle insofar as Social Media Marketing is concerned? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hype_cycle
Peak of Inflated Expectations? ...or Trough of Disillusionment?
How long before we reach Plateau of Productivity ...or are we already there?
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Joe Villeneuve Responded on 1/9/2010


I think we are just beginning. The future lies in the ability to combine all of the SMM/web based media into a cohesive/complimentary marketing system. This is starting to take place now, but I don't think we've seen anything yet. The future will bring improvements to the media as well as new ideas. I've always been very system oriented, and I think many nay sayers are people that have not taken the SMM/web based media to the max. They take it just far enough to say they tried it and it doesn't work. This road is not something that is exclusive to this discussion though. We have seen, and will see, many topics and other inventions/programs/services go through the same type of discussion...good/no good. The internet itself and the personal computer are just two examples. 20 years ago would you ever have thought we would be doing what we're doing now using the computer? Same with the internet just 10 years ago. Both of them started their life with the same negative opinions. The reason why we are here to today discussing this topic is because there were those that could see the future...and to them it looked good. They worked towards that future in spite of the negativity because they knew what they had and they also knew that 20/10 years ago, those with the insight, could take advantage right then. Today, those that see the same type of light regarding SMM/web based media for marketing are moving forward successfully. Those that don't...?
J V
www.automateyoumlmnow.com
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William Henderson Responded on 1/11/2010


For those businesses wanting to take the Social Media plunge... http://mashable.com/2010/01/11/social-media-integration/
However check out the sentiment in the comments that follow the article in particular the one that describes the 10 Stages of Social Media Business Integration as too ABSTRACT.
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Bloggers School Responded on 1/11/2010


Hi William you still make no point because it cost next to nothing to own and operate. It make room for the little people. Fear not New Media let yourself go. Your way to stiff but you still look young live young adapt and go where the competition goes. Don't let others dream coming true ruin your day, by hating on the Media.
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William Henderson Responded on 1/12/2010


Business persons consider use of resource – like one’s time – as cost, not just cash out of pocket. In that regard business people must determine productive use of resources (time) in order to establish prospects for a profitable return on investment. I envy the success you have achieved Bloggers School. The dynamic following of the many faithful, hopeful, dreamers who have embraced your doctrine are testament to your eloquence, command of language, and transcendent wisdom. I am unworthy.
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LOL! hysterical... thanks for the laugh - Antoinette Raynes 1 on 10/6/2010

 
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Chris Silvey Responded on 1/12/2010


Smm is something I have to work on and fast. I have a few web projects that require API integration for twitter, facebook, etc. Something I haven't done yet on any project, but looking at some major sites like NBC.com You have to wonder, so I guess a bit of studying is in the till.

Today I was surfing for theater times for a new movie called legion. Goto http://www.legionmovie.com and you will see on the right clear as day a social networking control.
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Joe Villeneuve Responded on 1/12/2010


Chris, you hit an important item when you mentioned the word "integration". So many times I see people think they are using SMM correctly but all they're doing is showing up on the SMM sites. Simply sticking an ad in the paper isn't the right way to use the print media any more than having a page on FaceBook is the right way to use SMM. I say this all the time...
E D U C A T A T I O N...but, too many aren't willing to put in the time or money...and just say "I tried it...doesn't work". There are too many of us that have used it successfully to know that it works. The difference? EDUCATION...proper education and tools to put the training into practice. Then, you must integrate the SMM's with your other marketing media and be consistent...and take advice from those of us who have made it work...not those who say it doesn't.

Joe Villeneuve
www.automateyourmlmnow.com
http://socialmarketingeducation.blogspot.com/
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Victoria Garcia Responded on 1/12/2010


You rock, William. Time is as important as money in my small business world. I can't spend hours hoping that something will pan out. I only have so much time to work with. I prefer to spend it (1) on my website, (2) on my blog (we'll see if this brings in anything, the jury is still oot (3) making referral contacts, (4) real world networking with live bodies, and (5) giving workshops through www.meetup.com.

THE NEW DAY HAS ARRIVED. Business owners want proof that a media they are investing time and money on is going to show a ROI. There was a time when you could not track anything. Now you can obtain solid metrics on websites and blogs. We want the same benefit with TV and radio commercials, and it's happening.

Chris and Bloggers School, you are indulging in "magical thinking." Like when you look out the car windows on a dark night and think the moon is following you as you drive along. Just because you're busy doesn't mean you are actualizing a dream. Dream on, hallucination guppies. I think I'll go make some money.
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Bloggers School Responded on 1/12/2010


Victoria I find your comments Tasteless and ignorant I might even feature you on Helloignorants.blogspot.com I don't know why you are hating on others. It may be because you are losing control. Keep in mind that you had a dream once and it coming to an end. You both spend more time here doing social networking never gaining ground. wasting your time on something you think is a Fade. Well watch me laugh all the way bank while doing what I love and helping others to do the same.

It's magical thinking that put a black president in the White House. The mind is limitless if you let it be. "Time for change" "Yes we can" learn social media.

Blogging and Meetup are social media I don't know who said they are not. I noticed you said in your last post lets see what my blog brings in keep that line of view and I can give you your guarantee right now.


Oh and when social media crashes you can bet your last dollar I will be on the next big thing, Why Because I have no hate blocking my line of view. You see when you shoot a bow and arrow you need to tilt the bow. Why because the bow will block you from the real view of target.

Victoria I am done wasting my time in your nasty environment I am moving on the soar with Eagles, Because I don't like turkeys.

Best wishes
John

Chris lets talk
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Joe Villeneuve Responded on 1/12/2010


John, Well said. Oh by the way, while all the negative postings have kept this forum spot active, I have received 7 requests for information that has already led to a new client...and I expect more to come. I want to thank Victoria and William for their posts...and I won't (actually can't) repeat some of the interesting comments I have had sent to me privately about the comments and attitude witnessed here by Victoria and William.

It is pretty funny. Thanks again William and Victoria.

Joe Villeneuve
www.automateyourmlmnow.com
http://socialmarketingeducation.blogspot.com/
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Victoria Garcia Responded on 1/12/2010


Oh, dear! A little too much reality, BS (the one without a real name)? [More irony] Once upon a time people believed fervently in Phrenology and before that the ebb and flow of humours as medical doctrine. And, then there were/are those converts to multi-level marketing, who rush out of pitch meetings screaming "We're going to get rich on water filters!" "Don't poke holes in our balloons, please!" Apparently it irritates the hysterically excited converts.

Honestly, you have shown me one more insight...people who get off on SM are possibly people who can't hang with real people in the real world where disparate opinions might surface? Am I wrong? Could this be true? I'm relatively new to SMM and I don't know the secret rules.

Have fun with it, twitter to CNN hosts, send your friends itty bitty posts on what you ate for breakfast, follow the stars...but don't keep pushing it on everyone else that it has a business application. Joe's above comment excepted...like I said before, devotees selling to devotee wannabees. You're the only ones making money on it. Happy, truly, for you. Make hay while the sun shines, Joe.

It's been fun, guys. Tootles.
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Victoria Garcia Responded on 1/12/2010


Holy Cow! I just went back and realized that Blogger's School was a truck driver and now is a Social Media business consultant. I rest my case.
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Carolina Frederico Responded on 1/12/2010


Victoria!

Since you said you are new in this "Social Media Stuff", here is a hint that you can actually use everywhere you are trying to hang out: be nice, it's not your party!

Say something that you don't even know deeply about "doesn't work" is strait up ignorance, and I feel sorry for you, a person obviously full of prejudice and use to poor judgment. Social Media is not supposed to work. It's supposed to make people work for you because they like or believe you for some reason, because you have something to say and you are truly a nice person. Social Media will never work for you, so don't you even waste your time trying...

Also, yes, Bloggers School founder is a truck driver, and that is exactly what piss of people like you and Rudolph Murdoch, because you know you are losing power, and having a diploma is not a guarantee to be in charge and keep the evil going. It's finally coming to an end... You can't control the information anymore! The content is out there, to be consumed by ignorants like you and truck drivers like John through a lousy Google search. Scary, ha? We are on the same level!

Finally, use the information you took from our site (because we have nothing to hide, we are actually proud of our journeys), and for you to judge people by their struggles or humble origins is just low. That should be out of this discussion, because we never know what life is going to bring. Things can change, and I know they will!

Cheers!
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Chris Silvey Responded on 1/13/2010


Victoria,

A big vocabulary and proper english doesn't make a person intelligent or wise. I find your recent comments rather facist and crude.

Nothing to worry about though. Usually those kind of people burn up in flames one way or the other.

You have to realise very few people have been given a silver spoon life. Very few come from rich families, very few are handed out the keys to success at no cost. Blogger has done everything on his own. He didn't have a trust fund, rich parents or spouse to what he has achieved. We all have to deal with what we are dealt.
It just goes to show you intelligence isn't a birth right and Blogger is just being an American. Going after the American dream and winning. Isn't this the land of opportunity?
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Joe Villeneuve Responded on 1/13/2010


Actually, Bloggers route to success should be an example of why SM DOES work. He was willing to put in the time to gain the knowledge that was necessary to get where he is today. How many actors/actresses start out as wait staff (and other "careers"). My first architectural job was designing Inground pools for 3 years while in school. I met many great contacts that eventually lead me to (quickly I might add) owning my own architectural firm for 30 years this March (God I'm old). I started this in the early 80's. Remember the economy back then? The networking and business knowledge I gained from the beginning has taught me the way to success is through education and networking. Wow, that sounds just like social marketing...doesn't it?

Joe Villeneuve
http://socialmarketingeducation.blogspot.com/
joe@thepowerofrealestatenow.com
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Victoria Garcia Responded on 1/13/2010


I'm over you guys. You can't talk facts to recent "I've found the answer to life!" converts. You'll be on to the next big thing as soon as this dies down. Lots of assumptions going on, which reflect on you, not me. Nothing against truck drivers...the nation would probably grind to a halt without them. That doesn't make them fit to give business advice.
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Bloggers School Responded on 1/13/2010


http://www.bloggersschool.com/2009/02/13/are-you-living-in-the-past-in-the-present-or-in-the-future/

Marshal McLuhan the Media is the message.
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Joe Villeneuve Responded on 1/13/2010


Victoria, I gave you facts in a previous blog posting.

Joe Villeneuve
http://socialmarketingeducation.blogspot.com/
www.automateyourmlmnow.com
joe@thepowerofrealestatenow.com
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Joe Villeneuve Responded on 1/13/2010


Victoria, I gave you facts in a previous blog posting. Let me add to the ones I gave for my architectural business 4 days ago: One of the leads that I had in limbo was a builder out of state (see, SM also allows you to contact/network with people across the country) that is interested in my expertise (energy efficient home design) that he found out from...you guessed it...my blog and other SM sites. That one lead/client will bring continuous jobs over the course of time.
Also, I just got off the phone with another person that I found while reading another SM site that can supply me with private financing for my real estate dealings.
From another posting, and another blog of mine, I made contact with a group across the country that is interested in one or more of my NNN rental lease houses. Since I can assist him with the financing to make the deals for these houses happen I win on many levels.
All of this, from SM sites that I post and monitor. Why am I successful and you are not? I want to be.
Oh, and thanks to this posting, I have added 5 more people to my SM marketing/educational program. I don't make much at all (next to nothing) on that program, but it always leads to one of the other ones...and you're right, as an entrepreneur, I will be on the next big thing, only not when this dies down. It will be added to the other big things I have now.

Joe Villeneuve
http://socialmarketingeducation.blogspot.com/
www.automateyourmlmnow.com
joe@thepowerofrealestatenow.co
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Rich Ward Responded on 1/13/2010


WOW! Nice conversations....I enjoyed reading all the posts. This is off topic but would any one like to partner up with me? I give away a free discount prescription cards that save people up to 75% on their prescription medicines. Savings does vary per prescription. Right now there is a huge demand for our card with all the folks out of work etc.... Here's some objective evidence supporting my claim that there's a huge demand for our card and services. Just follow this link: www.familiesusa.org

To date I have saved people collectively over $193,000.00 in prescription medicine costs. I can send you objective evidence of this via e-mail...a snap shot of the on-line office. We also offer a co-branding option that many businesses, charities and churches jump on. We put their logo on our discount card and they in turn give out the card, help people save money on prescription meds, people remember the business that helped them with a real need... the good word spreads about the business that helped them via word of mouth, and the business gets to earn a nice passive residual income stream, and I get to earn passive residual over rides. I have co-branded with businesses and charities that just love the card. It's truly a win win for all involved. Our card is accepted at all the pharmacies in the US. Been at it 14mo.

Here are some co-branded sites to review: https://www.nlrxco.com/hbam www.NLRxCo.com/WordShopParable https://www.nlrxco.com/abcf https://www.nlrxco.com/aa
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Vinay Gupta Responded on 1/14/2010


hi guys,
SM works. it should be done properly.


I will show you example
1) http://twitter.com/zeustek : this is my twiiter profile , i just created one and i noticed the profile has page rank -4.. so I easily got 1 one way PR4 link
2) check this http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/zeustek.com#trafficstats and click on clickstream and you will see lot of traffic is coming form twitter and digitalforum


believe me you can get huge traffic from social media. and dont forget to post in Digg, delicious , kaboodle, mixx.... and all social bookmarking websites. these are Pr9 and they have top listing in google
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William Henderson Responded on 1/14/2010


Thanks for the info Vinay. I checked web sites posted in this community (JoeV) and find there is virtually no traffic or page views. I also noticed that for a fellow who claims to be so connected through social media, followers and contacts are very few. It is interesting to note that JoeV is associated with, followed by, and complimented by Dearl Brewer (across the many Social Media venues). Mr.Brewer is associated with HealthH2O and Evolv – an alleged pyramid scam involving bottled Houston TX tap water. http://www.courthousenews.com/2009/11/19/EvolvWaterIsSnakeOilCancerCenterSays.htm
It would appear that MLM /pyramid scheming is a favorite pastime for some who claim Social Media Marketing "education" and the "products" they offer will propel small business to the level of success they themselves experience. Information you (the victim) might provide to these affiliate types may end up in the hands of MLM "lead generators" to exploit via countless scam artists and direct sales or distribution pyramid recruitment schemers. This is the very thing the FTC has been trying to address by tightening disclosure rules (Dec. 2009), which are predictably widely ignored by many SMM/MLM profiteers.
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Joe Villeneuve Responded on 1/14/2010


William, You're reaching. I focus on quality not quantity...I thought I mentioned that. Also, if you read my signatures (I rotate them for google reasons) you will see the www.automateyourmlmsite.com listed...which tells the world I am associated with that site. That site has a number of capture pages that I use of which they all have different hit amounts.

But, thank you for informing me with regards to Mr. Brewer. I will give you this, he just asked me to be connected so I haven't had a chance to check him out yet. Now that you've brought this to my attention I will drop him from my list.

Joe Villeneuve
http://socialmarketingeducation.blogspot.com/
www.automateyourmlmnow.com
joe@thepowerofrealestatenow.co
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Joe Villeneuve Responded on 1/14/2010


William, You do understand how SM works? By default, If I'm connected to a person who has a following of 2000 people, then I have a following of 2001 people since the postings and conversations I have with that one follower of mine can appear on his page and then be seen by all of his followers as well. It works better if it involves a group because that is a very specific group of like minded/focused people that will see all the postings made by an individual on that group's site. You can't measure the coverage of your efforts using SM just by how many people are directly following you.
In addition, as my email and telephone number is also seen by all these people, they don't always go to any one site first...they may just email me for info and a call.
Also, here are the numbers of just one of my current running campaigns. These are a couple of the alternative landing pages: 7, 8, 6, 5, 6, 47 (sign up page). These are unique visitor numbers for this month. Right now my unique visitor count is 113 with my conversion rate at 24.78%.

Joe Villeneuve
http://socialmarketingeducation.blogspot.com/
www.automateyourmlmnow.com
joe@thepowerofrealestatenow.co
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William Henderson Responded on 1/14/2010


Seems most of your 19 Twitter followers are Internet/SMM real estate marketing consultant types and United First Financial (a firm your an agent for and have posted a link to) yet another alleged MLM pyramid scheme. http://www.kiplinger.com/magazine/archives/2008/05/prepay_mortgage.html
http://www.sequenceinc.com/fraudfiles/2008/08/23/what-does-another-expert-say-about-mortgage-acceleration-programs-like-united-first-financial/
...but I did blush at one of your followers tweets: "adults looking for fun"; "get laid guarantee"; "my sexy girls pictures" along with tiny URL links I dare not venture to ;-)
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William Henderson Responded on 1/14/2010


http://mashable.com/2009/10/27/social-media-roi/

Informative, and humorous.
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Joe Villeneuve Responded on 1/14/2010


William, I find that Twitter is named appropriately. I'm on there, but I rarely visit it. As far as the United First site, your comment about it being an illegal pyramid scheme just shows your ignorance and I'm beginning to see what I would term as malice toward anything on the internet that you don't understand. For someone that has such a disdain for SMM. MLM's and anything similar, you sure seem to be on those sites a lot. I almost get the feeling that you had a bad experience and have decided that everyone associated with this is bad and it is your mission to get them. I'm not saying that there are not people and groups on the internet that are less than scrupulous, but you seem to want to group everyone together that way. Of course you are going to find articles and postings that are negative about many people and organizations, but after doing this for almost 20